How to nerf Angle properly


#1

This will be a post on how to nerf Angle properly and why this Change is really bad for the Community.

First of all. It seems to me that angle has never been a problem. Problems just arose when Che came along. Sure Angle was always ok but noone ever seemed to be rediculously OP with it. I would argue that no other Player requires Angle to be nerfed.

So how should we go about nerfing Angle ? To nerf a Module 3 things have to be fullfilled. The Module hast to be stronger with less effort and less Skill. Is this the Case for Angle ? Thats actually a question that we cant answere at all. There has never been a player like Che. That indicates that a lot of skill is in involved. Does it take less effort to play ? Id say no. The timing to holeslide is 1/20 of a second to hit that consistently is hella stressfull. When i saw Magicans video of him holesliding showing his fingers, I lauged my ass of. Why ? I could have never imagined that people are such tryhards in a cute game like this.
But there is one thing that may be the case. Angle seems to have a higher skillceling than the normal curve. That means that if u master Angle u can get waay better than other playstyles could ever become and potentially even become unchallanged.

This is what happend to Che. He just is really good.
We should maybe ask Che what he thinks. He probably knows and has some sugestions of how to get Angle in line with the other playstyles.

The Change that was made to Angle was a nerf aimed specificly at Che but hitting all Angle players simultaniously. It changed the module instead of nerfing it. A nerf to Angle should aim at the skillceling. But this is not what happend at all. U guys just killed Angle. Forcing everyone that has thousends of games with it, to eigher quit or pick up somthing else. This game is already dieing should we really make some dedicated players leave?

Here are some sugestions for good Angle changes (but still ask Che).
-Make holesliding impossibile, eigher by adding a minumum timing for 2 angle turns or disable hole points if Angle is activated.
This alone should cost Che 20 - 30 points per Game.
-Less defence on Angle.
But remember that this is a tough topic. Should We nerf him so Hard that hes not Rank one anymore ?
This Changes also dont really effect other Angle players.

If u have questions about the minimum timing i have thought that through and can asnwhere wuestions of how this could be implemented.

I also hate the current atmosphere reguarding Che. He is not a bad Guy at all but you guys are laughing your behind his back because he is forced out of the game.
Here is a fun fact for you. If angle stays like this, Che will stay the best player of all time. Because there has never and ther will never be a Player that was so good he got kicked out of the game by shuting down his playstyle.

I really hope i can prevent a disaster happening with this post. Permanent Angle is a Playstyle that rewards Skill and dedication. It should not be killed.
I will make some enemys with this but whatever.

Have a lovely day
Riomo


#2

Angle turn was a big problem after version 1.4.7. | 06-11-2018, it was just that people went absolutely pissed off after Che and other pro players started to use it constantly.

The problem (and some of these points are still a problem) was that the developers buffed it’s cooldown from 8 seconds to 4 seconds, which makes it able to be used infinitively. We also know that angle turns is the best defensive power in the whole game, as long as you have semi-pro skills of using it and dodging attacks. It’s one of the best offensice powers as well, if used with laser. And we better not forget you were able to life forever with angle turns and time bomb too.
So far, just these points were making angle turns the most OP power in the game. But angle turns has a 30% protection as well, which means, even if you hit a skilled angle turns player, you don’t do much of a damage


Angle turns should be as the other powers are. The power’s strength should be similar to the other powers, which is… mostly in a good condition for most powers (cough - multi, thick :eyes:). So far angle turns was the best in most categories - stealing percentage, protection percentage, cooldown, offensivility, defensibility.
The skill level should vary from normal for beginners to well balanced, yet powerful depending on the user’s tactic for skilled players.


Angle turns is not dead, it’s just the angle turns players are used to win easily without so much effort (at least the pro users). We’ve all suffered the nerf of our main powers, but we didn’t quit just because of that. There is always an alternative to switch to another power, or make your power
useful again with the help of another power and your tactical skills.


Holesliding should stay since 20-30 points of difference isn’t a problem and only people with fast fingers can do those anyway. So it’s based on skill and not on the strength of the power.

I agree about the less protection percentage on angle turns. It was 50% before, then it got to 30%, but 30% is still a lot with those qualities of angle turns. I would say 20% (or a bit more) would be the good, since the new users of this power should have a way to master this power without losing so much in this attempt.

But you forgot the most annoying yet troublesome problem of angle turns, it was able to be used infinitively. Some people might have thought that the developers have forgot to make it normal after the April’s fool day update, but that wasn’t the case. People should know there shouldn’t be a power that can be used all the time (cough - thin), since that’s not fair for any other power in the whole game. The nerf of the duration was must to happen. Although I think it would have been better if the duration was 4 seconds and the cooldown 6 seconds.


Here’s another fun fact, as you said, if angle turns stays (it’s not like it’s gone though), Che would have been the best player in the current state of the game. But he isn’t that good with any other power anyway, so he’s the best player of angle turns and not the whole game. And I don’t think Che left because of that, but personal reason, at least that’s what I heard.


I hope you guys (angle turn users) who still haven’t realised angle turns was way too OP, but think the nerf killed it, that It was a thing that should have happaned a long time ago.


#3

Did you hear about that 74R45 guy? He had 2160 with angle+laser, same as Che. Did you see Magician, meow or Mostafa playing angle? If not then you just need to get the facts better because it’s incredibly hard to hit them with shots or fevers even for best players, if yes then it’s ridiculous to say that only Che was the problem. It was definitely the module.
Also have you ever played cf2/3? Corner doesn’t work there all the time but it’s still very useful. You just used to play this OP module this way, but counting time of use and space for this use just make it more skilled, but still strong (should I remind about 30%, best in the game?).

You’re delusional. Che is probably not even best corner player (“the best player of all time” requires to play at least 2-3 different combos well and probably some good plays on tours among the best players). Again: have you ever seen 74R45 playing with angles? Or Magician? Their level of corner control is more impressive than Che, even though Che is definitely a great corner player.

Changing the cooldown is not a disaster or something new, it’s just back to the roots of classic corner of cf2/3 and early cf pro.


#4

I lit a Fire here great.

I hope you guys (angle turn users) who still haven’t realised angle turns was way too OP,

So basicly both of you are aguing that Angle can not be balanced if permanent and should therefore be not permanent. But we havent even tried to balance the permanent version. I just find it increadabally unfair to give the Players the chance to pracrise a certain playstyle for multipile years and then just removing it. Angle skill cant be transfered thats the problem. U just dont do that to your Playerbase.

And trust me there are ways do balance Angle that are not the current version. Yust remove all defence from it and see what happens. That should only be a number in the code. Hell u could even make Angle users take more damage since the power is so good.

the best player of all time” requires to play at least 2-3 different combos well and probably some good plays on tours among the best players

You can argue about this. But the player that is on Top of the Leaderboard is the best player. If noone else is able to pass him. Thats just how it is. I can pick up the simpelest combo and reach Rank 1 in 5 Houers like a noob. Am i the best player then ? Yea i am since noone can pass me.
It dosent take multibile areas to be the best player. Yust be good at one thing.
If the second best cant pass u but is better in lets say onshot fights, u are still the best.
And im quite certain that Che was unbeatabale by everyone.
I am obviously talking about the long term outcome of several games here.
But i really dont care if this argumantation about him being the best is valid.


#5

(sorry for my bad english, but I need to comment a bit XD)
Riomo says that che is the best player in cfpro, let me just remind you that he was the best in the table only because of the unbalanced and too op corner.
It was not fair that when you had a corner you had an advantage over everyone else who played without a corner. Hitting corner player was almost impossible.
99% of players who play cfpro have a positive opinion of the nerf corner, because the power was too strong and needed a nerf, that’s it.
I’m laughing for players who had a gm with corner, and now playing without a corner, they fall to dia / gold and cry that this game is stupid just because they played with a power that was too op and unbalanced.
In my opinion, after this nerf corner, playing cfpro is more fun, not paying attention to the fact that the laser or multi are still a bit too strong :cowboy_hat_face:


#6

New to cfp? :joy: Should I remind laser walls, knockout system, death match, bounty mode and team games here? All were removed.

No you’re not. It only means that maybe (just maybe) you’re better than players who were with you in rooms. But even then it’s not necessary true: some people troll, some have bad connection by chance, some are just having fun with 50% of their potential. What if you tryhard 2 games and then troll 5? Are you necessary worse than someone who lost you 2 games but then won next 5 and got better rank? Your statement is right only if you consider that all people (especially top players) have motivation for rank. It’s rare nowadays though, happens only occasionally for some challenges.


#7

Angle turns shouldn’t had such a big duration in the first place. How would you feel if any other passive power could have been used non-stop? It just feels wrong.

Also, just to say, we’re currently discussing our opinions about this power and how it should have been nerfed. Let’s lit the passion of the spirit of discussions and not something violent and negative :smile:.


To be honest, the leaderboard has been totally false for the past year in telling the strength of a player. I think the best way to tell who’s the best is by hearing the community’s opinion. (But we all know Legolas was the best)
(And therealmadridcf was the best CF3 player for me :heart:)


#8

Lol.


#9

Noone is even adressing that this is not the right way to nerf something.

Its compleatly obvious that 99% of players are fine with the change. Because 99% of the playerbase is not playing Angle.
But imagine this. If those players whold have played corner and put their heart into it. They would be mad.

And how are u guys even comparing youselfs to corner players ? Its not obvious at all for somone that never played Angle if an Angle player has 2000 or 10000 games on Corner. Corner also has a steeper learning curve and as i mantioned a higher Skillceiling. So how can u even say that:

he was the best in the table only because of the unbalanced and too op corner


#10

nah i like angle and im still fine with it being nerfed just only 2 second of curving not a big change you know


#11

they fix corner but they dont fix the game nice job


#12

A good corner player needs to get transisions (Taras does that perfectly and used that even befor the nerf). After all, its CurveFever not Corner Fever.


#13

t r u e :joy:


#14

I think that I classify myself as a corner player?
As the nerf was from 4s Cool down and 6s duration changed to 7s cool down and 5s duration, I’d say this is a good nerf and I am perfectly fine with it because being able to use Angle Turns module infinite amount of times when re-charged is over-powered while having 30% defense. This means that the corner player (if they use it skillfully) can avoid attacks easily. But as it got nerfed, casual players are able to try and attack the corner player within the 2 seconds range of time.
I think that Geert have nerfed Angle Turns module at a good level, but I guess some elements maybe need to be thought of.
In my opinion, I think that if those 99% players who don’t play Angle Turns and if they did, I don’t think they would be mad about it and would accept it because of how it was over-powered module, which made the game unfair.


#15

But why would you put a topic that says “How to nerf angle propely” Its so dumb lel


#16

I totally agree with @Youu. He made some really insightful comments!


#17

Honestly… I thought I was done commenting on angle related topics. But here I am.

There have been incredibly OP combo’s in the past as well. During some period a while ago, shots used to have a way bigger explosion radius than they have currently. People who didn’t use shots also complained. Shots got nerfed and another module became more popular to play with. That’s just how it went: buff, nerf, buff, nerf, … until devs hoped to get a balanced game which they never seemed to realize. Now updates happen less frequently/barely/never.

So, now it was time to kill the incredibly OP angle module (and it was only killed a little) If you really believe angle wasn’t OP… i’ll just quote myself on what I wrote in discord. It received 14+ upvotes so many people agreed.

So really, if you still believe angle is OP, after all the things people said in this topic and others, there’s really not much to talk about.

Here’s a fun fact for you! Che never was the best player of all time. Sure he reached top 4 with 4 different accounts. I mean it’s something cool and all credits to him, but he did so using practically 4 times the same combo. It just points towards him being incredibly inversatile in his combo usage. All of his combo’s included angle. Take that away from him and he’s still a really good GM, but I’ld never think of him as the best player in this game. He could prove me wrong, but from what I noticed, he just stopped playing.
And even if we consider angle, there is the likes of 74R45, meow, Magician, etc. All players who’ve also proven themselves playing extremely well with combo’s that did not include angle.
I don’t want this to become a who’s the all time best player but I surely consider players like

  • You (3x champ, incredibly versatile-give him some modules and he’ll give you a hard time),
  • NICK (what he can do with not OP-passives is out of this world),
  • 74R45 (imo a more well rounded angle/laser player, he will definitely suffer less from this angle nerf, or he might even benefit),
  • meow (Champ, incredibly versatile, really good player with multiple combo’s including a blue+other module)
  • Jaan (Multiple champ, probably the most accurate curver with You, also masters the angle module)
  • Owl (this player does not need an explanation… when he’s not trolling, you’ll find him in tour finales. When he’s trolling… you’ll find him in tour finales. Multiple champ)
  • doncoupon (Champ, what the dude can do with his jump/oneshot is incredible)
  • myself (Multiple champ, reached #1 with jump/one shot, hide/one shot, one shot/multi shot, multi shot/time bomb, jump/thick fever in different era’s, reached #1 #2 #3 #5 simultaneously)

I’m sorry if I forgot people. This is just a quick list of active people who I think of. Nothing definite but like I said, this is not the right topic to talk about this.

Oh dude, don’t be butthurt. That’s just what happens when you occupy #1 #2 #3 #4 on the overall leaderboard. Back when I did close to the same, people enjoyed me losing as well. High trees catch most wind. If you don’t want this, then don’t make yourself so ‘visible’. I can speak for most top GM’s with whom Che played a lot. We really like the dude, but his playstyle is annoying to play against. He mastered angle well, but in an OP way one could never achieve without angle (imo).


#18

My point wasent at all that Angle was not OP. I dont even know how u can come to this conclusion ?
My Point is that Angle was OP but killing it is the is the compleaty wrong way to nerf it.

It dident take 2mins yesterday and this happend
Screenshot_18
the first massage was also from blue
He ranted about the nerf of Angle obviously.
But why would anyone care about a goldie? I mean he chose to learn Angle thats his own fault… How silly. How stupid can somone be to Learn angle… Everyone knows Angle should have never been in the game all along.

And i only sayed that Che was the best because thats such a hot topic. But i can give u there reson why he was here. Imagine there are 2 companys competeing aginst each other. CompanyA has 3 ok businessplans but the other company has One really good one that can beat all of CompanyAs Buisinessplans. Witch company is going to make the race?
A Player can be good at 5 different Combs and reach GM with them. If aanother Player has ONE good Comb that beats all of the other Combs he is better. We can only Compare ourselfs through the Elossystem here. Everything else is just guessing. “I think this guys is better” dosent mean anything if he cant pass that player on the leaderboard. Sure the Elosystem has its flaws but its our only way to compare ourselves. And who was going to pass Che ?
Also “He was only at the top because of how good Angle was” is meningless. Identifying and practising the best Tactic are importent skills if u wanna be the best. No Tactic is forbidden, everything the game offers can be tried. Che would not be the best anymore but a week ago he was. And in that game probably noone is going to beat him.
And if u have already have found the best tactic, why would u switch to somthig else? If it is the best taktic, its by definition even bad to play somthing else. What we can draw from that is, that being a Jack of all trades (if ur not the beast already) is a bad tactic to climb the leader and it dosent mean anything to be versatile. But dont think anyone really acts like this, atleast here. Thats because ther are not many skilled players here. If the playerbase would be bigger this would be was more important.

Well this was all i had to say about this. There will be nothing more coming from me.


#19

I will repeat again. Curve fever (if we start from cf2) exists for at least 8 years. All this time except for about last 1,5 years it was impossible to use corner all the time. In cf2 it’s never possible and you know what? A lot of people still use it there and it helps. It’s much more natural for corner to be available occasionally, not all the time. So you try to say that coming back to the way corner existed for like 6-7 years is killing it? Nah, rather this 1,5 years episode of infinite corner was a mistake. The problem is that you perceive this change as experiment while in reality the “infinite corner” was an experiment. You don’t know the history of the game and when the community try to explain you why it was nerfed in this most natural way you seem to refuse hearing it.

And the last: we actually don’t have the tool to define “the best player”. The real question is do we really need it? Some athletes can’t win Olympics but win everything else, some fail to be consistent but show brilliance when it matters the most. We have a lot of skilled players and that’s one of the reasons which makes game fun. And we should be happy that we still have updates and possibility to play the game when the dev company is bankrupt.

Hope you will find the aspect in the game which still makes it fun for you.


#20

I agree with most of your points mentioned in that very nice and constructive post of yours. Anyway, I do not think I should be considered as one of the best players because my prime times are over (I won tournaments during my prime times or was close to winning it).

Right now, I cannot get past 1900 rank that easily and I am not performing well either in tournaments. After the nerf of the Angle Turns, I lost many potential good combinations for me (I could master them again, but, it will take some time and I do not play that much right now because I am busy with recording for camp competition).

Anyway, there are still some good combinations for me but I think there are many better players than me, for example, big_aur, piotr3pl, okleksik and many other users who were not mentioned.

To sum it up, I really like that you included me in that list but I do not think I am worthy to be there because I am not that good.