[General discussion] Angle Turns - Overpowered or Not?


#1

Hello,

I am going to try to discuss the active topic in Curve Fever Pro community - Angle Turns.

Almost everyone who has played against Angle Turn users say that the module is too powerful or at least think so. Well, yes, it can be. But also, can we forget how NICK made pacifism powerful with using Brake and Jump only (NICK managed to climb up to higher rank than 2000 and won an official tournament with those modules against modules which could steal points). After NICK’s triumph, it seems, more players have got into pacifism (for example HyceK who has about 2000 rank by using Power Dash and 180 only) and play really powerful. Also, Speed and ZAP can be made powerful if you are skilled as Bantonaut, same goes for One Shot and Jump combination. Players with skills like doncoupon can make it extremely powerful. I could continue with this list but it would be very long and will not be that interesting to read.

My point with that long paragraph is that if you are really skilled at one combination or module, you can be very powerful in this game. Let’s say, a player, who has not played much with Angle Turns picks it up, it will show them, that Angle Turns are not that easy as they say. Some people like Che are very skilled there. If Che was not that skilled, he would not be that powerful. Let’s have an example from basketball. If USA national men basketball team would be filled with their best stars, they would be way too powerful and would beat the opponent teams easily (mostly) as well. The same goes for Curve Fever Pro. Some people are gifted to be good Angle Turns users but it is possible to gain those skills with hard training, as well. Do not get me wrong, skills do not come just as a gift, they need to be unlocked by hard training. For some people, it comes easier, for some, it does not. There are also people who will not adapt to Angle Turns so yes, everyone is different and so are their abilities.

I mentioned training in my last paragraph, as you know, I personally use Angle Turns a lot. I started playing Curve Fever 2 over 6 years ago and had the chance to play Curve Fever 3 as well. I played lots of Angle Turns (also known as Corner or Hooks) in those Curve Fever versions. That is why I am a bit better than average Angle user would be. Everything comes with training.

A bit about Angle Turns + Laser combination. My own friends even said they hate playing against me while I am using those modules. Why? Well, I think, the problem is that Laser steals quite a lot when the game is about to end and the stakes are big and high (13.4% from total points of the user who got hit by it). Also, Laser effect lasts for some time which allows people who use the combination mentioned above to switch their directions multiple times and having a possibility to hit multiple enemy players. Screenshot of Laser module’s information:

Even if Angle Turns got nerfed, the combo would still be quite powerful in the right hands unless Laser got nerfed as well. About Time Bomb and Stealth Mine - those are funny modules as well and with perfect usage, survival time of them could be really long. Yup, it can be quite powerful for survival and defense but trust me, it is really hard to steal with them so it is quite similar to pacifist items in my opinion.

Sad part is that people dislike Angle Turns users and not even give Angle Turns module a try. Why? I think, they think that Angle Turns module is powerful and it would reduce their honour if they used it. That is not true, you need to work your way up even with Angle Turns module and in addition, it will be really fun because you can make funny drawings with the module! So, my suggestion is to not be so sceptical about Angle Turns and give it a good try - you will most likely not regret that!

About macros, I know, people assume top Angle Turns players use them which is not true. I know that Che is being accused a lot because of his very good Angle Turns skills but I spoke to him and he said that he does not use them and I believe him. Why? As an Angle Turns player, I know what humans are capable of and I think people could get even better than Che (no offense). Che also told me that he will soon make a video which will prove that he is not using macros for Angle Turns. I hope, everyone, who accused Che of cheating will see they were wrong then. I have personally also been accused (same players mostly) but I got no place for cheating in my values so I do not cheat. One day, I decided to prove it to them personally and they admitted that they were wrong about me. Some of my Angle Turns videos are seen here:

https://youtu.be/ndq9htHT6Kc (Curve Fever Pro Angle Turns hand camera video with me using 1 hand to play which was my former playstyle).

https://youtu.be/s1bi_HYljb0 (Curve Fever 2 Corner hand camera video with me using 2 hands to play).

https://youtu.be/hpDwuDYSc4g (Angle Turns sliding challenge).

https://youtu.be/6a_optVuLkw and https://youtu.be/a7RDPyrJmOs (my Curve Fever 2 Corner full camp videos).

https://youtu.be/Tz3BqxOoCbs (random Curve Fever 2 Corner 1 vs. 1 game).

https://youtu.be/NpShLb6SQI8 (random Curve Fever 2 4 vs. 4 Thin + Corner game).

https://youtu.be/S9vZWdWaI14 (one of my favourite videos, one of the best Corner FFA games I have played in, I was Scylla’ on the video).

I have not published any hand camera videos with me playing with 2 hands yet but I might do it if you are interested in seeing that once my laptop’s keyboard gets fixed or maybe I can give it a shot while playing on 2 keyboards at same time.

On this note, I am finishing for now. Feel free to leave a comment with your opinion about Angle Turns.

May the discussion begin (meant to be with James Halliday’ voice)

Magician


#2

Hmmm Don’t know what to say :joy:
:thinking:


#3

I agree on pretty much everything you’ve said man. Just like other Angle Turns players, I also have a large background in this power dating back to my cf3 days, where I loved red corner pickup so I always chose it.

I had a lot of practice with it back then, but then later in cfpro during spring 2019 I realised that the potential of Angle Turns + Laser combo is real, so I started playing pretty much nothing but that from that point on. I’ve played well over 5000 games using Angle Turns, so I don’t think it comes off as a surprise that I’m a bit better at it than others.

Well, it’s quite obvious that every combo is way better once it’s mastered, but the thing that’s not obvious is that different powers get more powerful by a [very] different margin the more you play it. Powers like Lazer or Angle Turns are really difficult to play with if you pick it up for the first time, but their power increases drastically the more experience you have with it. Way more drastically than powers like One Shot or Scatter.

And that’s when things like nerfing or buffing come. In my opinion, Angle Turns should be nerfed in some way or another. That may be removing the insane defense it has, increasing defense of other defensive powers or (what I’d do is) making it not infinite. One of the problems with cfpro is that the developers used to nerf or buff powers depending on their usage by the community, which resulted in the current situation (cos they stopped updating the game before Angle Turns became extremely popular).

But in the end, there is no game that is perfectly balanced, so finding the most powerful setup is just a part of it. Maybe Teleport is the next Angle Turns and nobody has found a way to play with it yet :man_shrugging:

Also, thanks a lot to Jaan for starting this topic, I would love to see what people are gonna say and to discuss/debate it with them!


#4

I agree with you on that.


#5

I deem that Angle Turns is a powerful module because you can dodge the attacks quite easily, if you’re skilled enough. I agree that Angle Turns requires skill to be in good use for the player, but even if they are not skilled enough, they are still able to manipulate their defense as Angle Turns has a high defense (30%). Also, the duration is 6 seconds while the reloading time is 4 seconds. This would allow the player to use Angle Turns throughout the entire game and ends up defending against other attacks which can make them untouchable.

Talking about macros, I agree that players do accuse some top skilled Angle Turn players, as example mentioned by Magician, Che. For me, it is quite hard to determine if he does use macros or not, because most of the times, he gets holes each perfect turns he does, but on rare occasions, he doesn’t. I, myself, have tried macros with Angle Turns (corner) in Curve Fever 2 and it always made perfect turns (when I couldn’t make them back then). But for some players, it may look obvious if Che used macros because of his perfect turns (with +1 most of the times when he makes a hole).

In my opinion, I think that players dislike Angle Turns because it is simply too overpowered by how it’s used by very skilled players, for example - Magician. Magician can defend quite well against other attacks with Angle Turns, basically making 90% of the time untouchable by other’s attacks. Even with fevers spammed at the Angle Turns player, they could still dodge the fevers.

Angle Turns + Laser combination is of course, without a doubt, the strongest Angle Turns combination that I know so far. The duration of the Angle Turns is merely overpowered and can be used throughout the entire game and the Laser module duration is 0.4 seconds and that is quite long for an overpowered module as the user can steer their line (with Angle Turns) and could hit multiple targets - example 74R45 - at 12:27.

Another combination is Angle Turns + Stealth Mine. This combination is mostly based on defending, which is popularly used by Che. I, myself, have used this combination and this was how I got to grandmaster level, but I don’t deem myself as grandmaster since I have used Angle Turns which as I said, is merely overpowered. Angle Turns + Stealth Mine is mainly on defending, but could also be used to attack too to steal points from other players. Yet, another good combination but I think Angle Turns + Laser is more overpowered than this combination.

There are many combinations that can be played with Angle Turns and I won’t bore you to death reading them all, so I decided to only explain my point of view on Angle Turns + Laser and Angle Turns + Stealth Mine.

When I use Angle Turns, I can press them fast but mostly I can’t do perfect turns like Che. In Curve Fever 2, I can mostly 98% do perfect turns but fail sometimes due to key-lag and it’s same with Curve Fever Pro too but Curve Fever 2 has more key-lags.

In summary, Angle Turns is deemed (in my opinion) to be overpowered.

But why does Angle Turns even exist in the history of Curve Fever… The word curve is for the line to curve around, not made for lines to make 90 degree turns :joy:


– Gremlin | Community & Game Moderator.


#6

You are also quite good at “sliding”. For me, there are 2 stages of “perfect” doubles. 1st one is when you turn with speed which allows you to touch the previous line perfectly and the 2nd (final one) is which lets you go into your previous line and “slide” by that. I think, Che is usually at 1st stage but he sometimes can “slide” as well. Same goes for me, I think.


#9

my eyes hurt because of reaidng this


#10

Quick statement: As some may know, i am the worst angle player in CFPro, but still i think its a Module i like. I like playing against things like corner laser and corner sideshot (maybe since i am a fever player). I really think, good corner players are not noobs, cause i know how hard it is, even for a not that bad curver like me to play corner and make use of it. In summary, i think it gets a lot of hate it doesnt deserve, but still need to be nerfed, because it beeing infinite plus getti g defense for basicly having no space to not pass if you are good at corner, is kinda ridiculous :slight_smile:


#11

That’s a very good point by Taras. Let me bring a bit of history of cf pro here :joy: I remember how one-shot was quite op (because it was possible to break holes in curves with it: imagine now one-shot is also a dash too? ridiculous!), how homing was quite op but working only at 70% (going through lines and stealing about same as laser) etc. They nerfed it all and made a pretty good balancing, but there was an opposite process: some modules were not popular at all, so they buffed it to make people actually play it: multi-shot seemed to be the hardest to aim, so at one point it had same stealing percentage as zap, imagine! (they nerfed it after people started to use it) Angle was not popular at all too: it had longer cooldown than duration of use at the beginning. Then they started to buff it: shorter cooldown, better defence percentage and now we have a lot of people actually using it a lot. But there’s just no team to make a needed nerf as it was before.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong or unhonourable in using corner. It’s not easy to master, but I also don’t understand when people say “try it and show how good you are”. You know, more than half of community played cf2-3 so they know a bit about corner (red corner pickup :heart:) Personally I just like it less here than in cf3.

It’s hard to deny though that angles have higher ceiling than other modules and right now is op:

  1. Best defense % (30%)
    Since Jaan mentioned me I just want to add that pacifist jump+brake has just about 24% combined while angles has 30% and you can add attacking module to it

  2. Best dodging module (just imagine that you have 180 degrees module with 0.1s cooldown or even less)

  3. Some fevers not working: reverse and steerless

  4. It’s probably the best module for making holes: once you see a hole, you can immediately turn. Let alone sliding thing (hopefully it’s a bug and will be nerfed)

  5. And to add to this a couple of combos:
    +laser with a possibility to make shots in 3 directions on just 6s cooldown
    +mine/bomb with a possibility of infinite survival

That said, it’s just a next module to nerf in a long line of nerfes we already saw during games’ lifetime. I’m not sure it will happen, but I would be glad to see it. As well said by Taras, players always tried to find most powerful combo, the game just needs to be developed to be balanced. At this point I would prefer to make a couple of other nerfes too (laser cooldown to 7s instead of 6 and thick attacking percentage to 12% - fevers should never have higher percentage than shots).


#12

I agree with NICK and conclude that angle is OP.
Let’s just give the player a name since he currently occupies the complete Top 4 with 4 accounts above 2100. The way he exploits those hole +1’s without going through them is just… unfair and not right.
Hitting an angle player is hard enough as it is. Adding on top of that 30% protection? It’s a joke really, makes people not even want to go for the angle player anymore, even if he is miles ahead of second player in the game.

Indeed, there was a time shots used to be OP. I remember it well since I managed to get top 3 then. Multi shot was literally untouchable then and far less people knew how to play with it than nowadays.
My point is, as people mentioned before, there was a team who could nerf it and let another combo be OP for a while. After which they nerfed those modules and so on…

The problem is… that this game is not looked after anymore by devs. RIP CFP. Amen.


#13

You are able to “slide” only with perfect turns and it is not what everyone could do, maybe 1 player out of 10 GM’s would be able to do it and maybe just 1 out of 25 GM’s would be able to do it constantly. I can also say that when someone is really good with some other modules, they could also have an advantage.

I am not sure about Che but usually people target me when I am leading and they have modules which are known as “spam”.

Yeah, using those kind of modules was much harder back then.


#14

I agree with @Svo that no one really does attack the corner player in any game, purely because they are nearly impossible to hit with shots, fevers etc as most of the corner pros are insanely good at dodging (@74R45, @Alpha, @Hybrid and Che to name a few off the top of my head).

Again it takes skill to get to that level but it doesn’t give motivation for anyone to try find a skill to counter it…

TILL NOW

The only reasonable counter I have found so far is my beloved 180 + Laser, as the element of surprise of the laser shot is impossible to dodge even for corner players (Jaan will know from the recent tour :wink: ).

Has anyone found a reasonable counter (if there is one) or have people just not put in the time/effort to find one?


#15

Personally, I struggle against Multi Shot module (while I use Angle Turns), maybe it would be powerful with Hide Self or Jump. Also, Hide Self and ZAP users are also unpredictable so that can be a good counter combination. Anyway, if there are many spammers, it can also be an issue.


#16

Is angle turns overpowered? It just depends who is using it. Personally, I’m not very good at it, although i do practice with it sometimes. It’s just weird to use because one moment you can curve around, and then the next you have to use angles. If you are good with it though then it’s definatley overpowered. If you use something like homing against someone who is using angle turns they can easily turn the other way, while deflecting your blast. So is it overpowered? If your good at it then yes.


#17

I played hide+zap a lot and it’s not a good counter to corner players. That can be a surprise for a couple of games for them, but then they just start to cover their part of the map and make it not available to get in. I would say that hide+fever is a much better counter (or maybe jump+fever).


#18

prob be an angle laser person :joy:


#19

best counter to angle turn: drive diagonally. many angle turn players can’t handle diagonals.


#20

another counter attack: hide self


#23

There is currently no counter against good corner players. Hide self doesnt really help against good players as they can actually predict your movements.
Against average corner players, a fever combo is good as you put pressure on them. But it doesnt fully work with skilled players. As lots of people said, the 30% defense is a nonsense as you dodge easily attacks.
Being good at corner needs a lot of practice, but being good at it is kinda boring for other players.
As nick said :

Best dodging module (just imagine that you have 180 degrees module with 0.1s cooldown or even less)

So true.
This module is not well balanced. Useless for noobs and average players, overpowered for gms who master it.
Everything has been said above. An online game has to be updated to balance the powers. Balancing a power takes 5 minutes to do if you have the idea to balance it. Just changing few variables value of an object. I understand why the devs gave up because of the small players base, but there is still a good community, Hundreds of different players everyday. These players give money by viewing ads or buying stuff. I know about servers costs. But not doing anything will one day cause it to collapse. Server lags and bugs are now part of the game. It doesnt take time to maintain it, because everything has been done before, they just need to make it lagless and update some powers and that would keep the community alive and possibly attracts new players more than now.


#24

true, good people who use angle turns might be able to predict your movement,but if you move so unpredictably you can catch them off guard and snag them while they’re still trying to figure out what happened

Hide self doesnt really help against good players as they can actually predict your movements.